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Hmmm....

How does one respond to the objection to women in the military "Women in the military get raped a lot?"

Because it's true and the response "So what?" isn't a very good one....

Comments

( 36 comments — Leave a comment )
buddykat
Dec. 17th, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)
Why should the fact that some men have issues with power and control force women to stay out of the military? The women aren't the ones causing the problem, any more then a woman who goes out to a bar and has a drink is at fault if she gets raped.
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taxlady
Dec. 17th, 2008 07:00 pm (UTC)
Well put. I think that we are rape is a symptom, not the real problem.
taxlady
Dec. 17th, 2008 09:19 pm (UTC)
oops. Try again: Well put. I think that we are rape is a symptom, not the real problem.
kishiriadgr
Dec. 17th, 2008 09:22 pm (UTC)
Yes.
kallisti
Dec. 17th, 2008 05:06 pm (UTC)
http://erynn999.livejournal.com/355254.html

Erynn is a long-time on-line friend who has been talking about this problem for a long time.

ttyl
kwokj
Dec. 17th, 2008 05:16 pm (UTC)
right... so we should deal with the women end, not the rape end of the problem?
rockahulababy
Dec. 17th, 2008 05:32 pm (UTC)
When I was in Afghanistan more than one man had been raped by another man. There goes the military, under that person's theory.

What do people like that want? Women to never leave their homes? What are they going to do when someone breaks into our homes and harms us? *shakes head*

I agree with cinchntouch... Rapists shouldn't be in the military. If you rape someone, you should go directly to jail, don't pass go, don't collect $200.
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marphilly
Dec. 17th, 2008 06:29 pm (UTC)
If rape is more common in the military, removing women from the situation isn't getting to the root of the problem, just dealing with the outcome. I see rape as debasing men as much as women anyway so it sounds like a problem within military culture. And even if women weren't around, the problem of men raping other men would still exist so the problem of rape will still be there. Male on male rape certainly exists but is rarely acknowledged.
die_uberfrau
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:19 pm (UTC)
^This.

Also, women can and do rape other women. Has happened, is rarely acknowledged, and frequently dismissed as "women don't do that" when acknowledged.
eosin
Dec. 17th, 2008 06:31 pm (UTC)
What happened to standards and accountability? It used to be that even consensual sex was discouraged, and all serious crime was heavily punished.

There have always been rougher, edgier men in militaries, and with enough standards of conduct and discipline, their aggression could be kept aimed at enemies. Hell, I'd like to see a return of flogging, but that's just me.
theletterelle
Dec. 17th, 2008 06:33 pm (UTC)
So do women out of the military.
die_uberfrau
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:13 pm (UTC)
erynn999 talks about this issue a lot.

Personally, I think the objection amounts to victim blaming. Women get raped outside of the military as well, should women not walk around after dark then? Should women not wear shorts or revealing clothing? Should women not refuse a skeevy date sex, having second thoughts? As a rape survivor, maybe I'm too close to the issue to talk about it, but I think a woman joining the military is not "asking for rape". I do think rape is about power, not about sex. Most men in the military are not rapists. However, some of them are. Just like some men are outside of the military. The military should have more psychological screening, and harsher punishments for those who commit rape. I know you're not a big fan of the death penalty and this is something we can agree to disagree upon, but I personally am pro-death penalty for this reason. We are way too candy-assed about permitting things that would have been met with getting a bullet in the head or a sword through the gullet, long ago. That's not to say that those with power trips + impulse issues would necessarily be deterred by the possibility of facing execution for their act, but it definitely means we need higher standards and more accountability in the military.
kishiriadgr
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:14 pm (UTC)
This argument is going on in a Christian Taliban blog, so the answer from these ladies would be yes, women must stay indoors and be protected by their menfolk.
die_uberfrau
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC)
Those women are fucking ridiculous.
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kishiriadgr
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:34 pm (UTC)
The one I am arguing with said that they never should have gotten rid of the WAVES and WACs so that women could be safely kept away from men and war-related danger.

I reminded her than WAVES and WACs have died in World War 2, Korea, and Vietnam. I expect my comment just won't be posted.
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kishiriadgr
Dec. 17th, 2008 09:40 pm (UTC)
Nope, there are no more WACs or WAVES. They were done away with in the 70s, I think. Wikipedia has more.

The only thing I regret about that is that the WAC pin for the Class A uniform had a nice profile of Athena on it.
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die_uberfrau
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:40 pm (UTC)
Lets pretend that there is a bigger war like WWII. Would these women be willing to leave their homes and do what my grandmother (and many other people's grandmothers) did and work in a factory making planes and bombs to assist the war effort if it was necessary for them to do so? These women weren't feminist but they did have an idea of duty.

^This.

I have argued with my uber-fundie relatives who feel Rosie the Riveter started "the breakdown of the family". So, pray tell, what *were* we supposed to do?

I guess these lily maidens would rather not sully their delicate hands with factory work in a WWIII scenario, but I also guess they didn't read that part in the New Testament where it says if you don't work, you don't eat.
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kishiriadgr
Dec. 17th, 2008 09:47 pm (UTC)
As I've said before, the reason some of them think of the "Little House" books as "feminist" is because it presents the unvarnished truth that 19th century pioneer women worked like DOGS. Everyone had to, or the family would die.
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la_azteca
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:42 pm (UTC)
"This argument is going on in a Christian Taliban blog, so the answer from these ladies would be yes, women must stay indoors and be protected by their menfolk."

And, the implication in those fundy thinking is that the women who don't are setting themselves up to be attacked -- or they deserve what they get.
helenkacan
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:23 pm (UTC)
Ask for proof. And not the kind that is "I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who was raped," either.

I would think that military women would be less likely to be considered easy rape targets, as they usually have more physical training than women in the general population.

However, in the end, I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not they are: it's just the fundies' exaggerated way of saying that if you put women into a predominantly male organization then there's going to be trouble (and make it sound more scary by calling it rape rather than mere fraternization). Because, no, there MUST be a strict segregation of the sexes At. All. Times!

Gah, it's always the same old tired routine with them. Oh, yeah, and before I forget the rest of the expected crap: men are sexual adventurers who are hardwired to TAKE and women are modest maidens who are programmed to protect their own virtue.
kishiriadgr
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:27 pm (UTC)
Actually, rape in the military is a documented problem. If I disagreed with that, I'd be lying. However, as rockahulababy pointed out, men in the military rape other men too, so it's a problem with certain men that will not be eliminated by just barring women from service.

helenkacan
Dec. 17th, 2008 08:40 pm (UTC)
I was not aware of that. However, as for men raping other men, you can imagine the fundies as saying that the ones who were raped MUST have been acting like women, i.e., gay and/or asking for it.

I wonder if anybody will one day have a specific test to weed out men whose chromasonal signature is XXY as men who have the extra X tend to be much more violent (and I could certainly see them seeking out a venue where their aggression is tolerated, if not valued). And, no, I'm not saying it's all genetic. ::sighs in exasperation::

kishiriadgr
Dec. 17th, 2008 09:08 pm (UTC)
XXY leads to a more feminine male, with undersized and sterile genitalia and often breasts. It's called Klinefelter's Syndrome. You're thinking XYY, but even that does not lead to behavioral abnormalities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
electorprince
Dec. 18th, 2008 12:41 am (UTC)
"Women in the military get raped a lot."

Women in the military get paid.

Women in the military do PT.

Women in the military deploy.

Women in the military do many, many things.

So do men.

It's called being alive. Being in the military doesn't exclude anyone from bad things happening to them, regardless of gender. The same ills that plague a society will be present in the military of that society, only magnified because the military is a small microcosm of that society and is therefore more subject to scrutiny.

Rapes in the military are also prosecuted more severely and with a better percentage of capture and convictions than rapes in the civilian sector. By that logic, women in the military are safer than their counterparts, and more likely to see justice done.

You want rape to stop? Teach your kids to be humans and not beasts. The shit starts at home, not in a uniform.
kishiriadgr
Dec. 18th, 2008 12:53 am (UTC)
I agree utterly.
desert_vixen
Dec. 18th, 2008 03:56 am (UTC)

Guess the men aren't doing such a good job protecting us, then. Or wait, let me guess, it's our punishment for being uppity bitches.

The problem too with a lot of the sexual assaults in the military (but not by any means all) is that alcohol is involved. And when alcohol is involved, things get fuzzy, and people's ethics start slipping. Not just the actual rapist, but the people around them. People start questioning whether it was "really" rape. And yes, the "bros before hos" attitude is alive and well many places in the military.

Until it is made clear that rapists will not be tolerated... they will be.

Personally, the only military worth having would be women and gay men. There would be no rape and they would have had Baghdad looking gorgeous by now.

The place could use some help.

DV
( 36 comments — Leave a comment )

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